how can one be patriotic yet hate our government at the same time?

I don't want to create controversy or anything. it's just a simple discussion question.


to me, it seems like you can't be 100% patriotic and hate the government at the same time. it doesn't make any sense to me. why are people so patriotic, you ask? specifically speaking of the USA, people love this country for the freedoms we have. BUT, these freedoms were put forth by the government. correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't it the government that enforces our bill of rights (the ten amendments.) ?? 


what differentiates one country to the next, in large part, is the government of the country. so how exactly can you hate the government, but be like YEAAAA I'M AN AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT! it just doesn't make much sense to me.


the old saying is, if you don't like your country then go to another country. for the USA, it has been said that you won't realize how good it is here until you go to other countries. but the reasoning behind all of that is because of the government structure. 


even if it's the culture of the USA that makes you like it, not necessarily the freedoms, it is the laws/freedoms we have which shape our culture!



also, on a side question, what is it with the government that aaron has so much beef with? because they don't allow music piracy? (jk of course)



note: this discussion is intended for just that- a discussion. i'm just really curious and i don't see the connection, so any input might help me understand better. any opinions welcome


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1)  There are far more Amendments than ten...


2) "but isn't it the government that enforces our bill of rights?"  -  Yes, and Libertarians like Aaron believe the government has assumed powers that far exceed those responsibilities.


To avoid a political bloodbath here, I'll simply leave the explanation at that.  Hope that helps.

1) the bill of rights = the first 10 amendments.. as i stated in my post.


2) elaborate more if you want. again, i'm not trying to call anyone out or prove anyone wrong. i just want opinions and viewpoints because with my state of mind i don't get it.

I hope you find what you're looking for with this question and that you don't get lynched by the mob.  =)  With that said, I think Aaron will be the only one to answer you about his "beef" with the government but...I can guess.  I think Aaron believes in government but he doesn't think they should control so many things.  He seems to me (and this is a big fat guess) that he is republican in every sense.

If you think about it...Hitler and the Nazis called you a traitor if you were a German who opposed the Nazi Regime and a true patriot if you did as your government told you. So...can you love your country and hate your government?  Yes, I think you can.  Government can make decisions about things that aren't good for my family, your family, or my neighbors.  However, if the government (meaning our representatives) feels it's good for us they say, "Sure, go ahead with that." 

I really don't think our forefathers meant for government to be like this.  Many years ago, people weren't lobbyists, senators, or governers for a living.  They took up that responsiblity because they loved their country and wanted to make a difference. 

Anyway....I've said enough and I hope people remain civil with you. 

thank you for the mature input bryan and cass.


i myself am not political at all and quite frankly i don't know shit about politics/government haha.


an answer to my own question that i kind of thought of was that the bill of rights were put forth by THE PEOPLE a long time ago and government is trying to (in some areas) take some of those freedoms away from us? that is not a factual statement, but just something i thought of that is maybe why one would dislike the government.


anywaaaaay, back to studying for finals :(


p.s.- i started this discussion last night when i was jacked up on adderall hahha. i always think way too much about shit on adderall. oh well. better than the discussions/comments from me when i'm drunk

patriotism and government arent meant to go hand in hand, if our for-fathers would see what was going on today they would roll in their grave. GOVERNMENT IS TOO BIG. 



i guess what i'm not understanding is what is our government doing that makes you hate them.... or would make our "forefathers roll in their graves"


like what specifically is the government doing, or has done lately, that has had a negative impact on your life?

I will take a stab at your question here although I am not too heavily into politics either (and I am still hopped up on Ativan from dental work earlier today ;). I consider myself fiscally/militarily conservative and socially liberal.I believe someone like Aaron would be considered a constitutionalist, maybe even conservative but not necessarily republican. It seems most, not all, republicans have some sort of a faith based belief system, at least that is how I view them.

Speaking for myself, the government has just gotten way too involved in the everyday lives of people. They seem to have become micromanagers. There are those certain unalienable rights guaranteed in the constitution which aren't being upheld in certain places (i.e sales of firearms aren't permitted in Chicago and the other gun laws they have are ridiculous). The government nowadays is more focused on helping those who have less at the expense of those who have more. Why should someone who has accomplished more in their life through hard work and earned their money have to pay more taxes than someone like you or I who may not have reached that level of success? It's bullshit. I am not here to take care of other people who choose not to do what they need to do to take care of themselves.

I would guess the forefathers were laying out a general set of guidelines that have somehow been picked apart and expanded on so much by all the politicians that they way things are run today is what would make them turn in their graves - the welfare system (which is out of control), unemployment, social security, Obamacare. I don't think the founders would have expected the people to look to and rely on government so much as they do today and for government in turn, to get so involved in people's lives...that my $.02

One can be patriotic and still dislike their government. Patriotic is not necesarily politic in all senses. Technically its just supporting your nationality and citizens. Its not always necessarily correlated to the current government. I mean with the way government is it changes daily and you can't always be supportive of gov't, but you can be supportive of your country (patriotism) by supporting the troops and people that reside in it and keeping it the way it is. Government is dynamic and with the way its going, there's not much to like about it. Government is taking control of healthcare, forcing you to buy it with obamacare, and also increasing taxes. And in my opinion a man is entitled to his labor and the money that comes from it. I do not think that someone (upper-class) who makes more money than others should have to pay "significantly" higher taxes than those in the middle-class. A person earns his money through his strenous labor and in most cases those who make a lot of money are entitled to it (not the media portrayed brokers and thiefs). They should not have to pay someone else's bills. In some ways though I think the upper class does need to pay more taxes due to the fact that some unemployed try to get a job back strenuously and are just unable to and for the purpose of making sure that people are taken care of health wise (humanitiarian). All and alll though it is your money and your earned it so you should get to keep it except for some basic taxes. This is what I think Aaron Lewis is mad about the current gov't control over ones personal liberties such as gun rights, money, and forced policies instigated among people. Patriotism is just a sound moral character towards ones country and loyalty towards whom will defend and support this nation through injustices and still fight their way for it. Politics was made for disagreeing and there will  usually never be a time where two sides agree completely on one thing. So it is okay to dislike gov't in its forms as long as one supports its country in the time of need and defends its current status a safe haven for most people and one that will not give up and fight for freedom, USA. Thats my opinion. I rambled on their for a bit and it probably didn't pertain to this conversation sorry hahah. I'm just a high schooler, not too smart. Just my thoughs and current opinions. Hope it helps.

P.S.  Does anyone else find it funny that this thread has hardly been "discussed" but the picture stealing thread is crazy busy?  lol....I'm just sayin......

ok, well. nima, im 22 years old. EVERY DIME the government spends on lets say, the "war" in iraq. billions if not trillions spent on it. and i have to pay for that. the money being spent is not suppose to be "printed" out in billions, that causes inflation and inflation will doom this country, ask greece. oh yea, and they lied to us ( they admit it now, look it up ) about

the gulf of tonkin incident. so, if our government would blatantly lie to us to go to war, what else will they do? go to war again. im not saying the gov did 9/11, all im trying to say is, everything they do, ALWAYS effects them in the good. while we recieve ALL of the bad and a little goodness here and there from them.


lol, nima, as a staind fam member, look into ron paul. if you dont like him thats all good with me, just hear his message.



Nima said:

i guess what i'm not understanding is what is our government doing that makes you hate them.... or would make our "forefathers roll in their graves"


like what specifically is the government doing, or has done lately, that has had a negative impact on your life?

i believe one can be patriotic and still not stand behind government practices....much the same i believe a catholic can believe in god, yet think that his church practices to be way off base....or how one can be a devowed muslim and yet still not condone what the religion is practicing in other places....patriotism is more of a belief system, where government has become a joke....taxation without representation sums it up best....people that are single are taxed at a much higher rate then people that are married and have children....are they lesser citizens because they are spouse-less.....i think not...and people that earn more money are taxed at a higher rate...are they lesser citizens because they make more money....i wouldn't have a problem with tax increases if it was lower the deficit....but no...raise taxes 5% and they need to increase spending by 10%....i would rather my hard earned tax dollar go to paving roads and bettering schools, but it doesnt....the roads and schools get worse....

so i think that patriotism means the culture we'd all like to see...people proud of themselves, their families, their jobs, their house, their cars and yes, their country....but when we are being led by money hungry, self serving politicians, how can we believe in our government???

much like the catholic that see's the priest with the quoir boy and wonders....hmmmmmmm....this is our leader???

NIMA= FAIL @ politics.

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